Persuasive communication and managing up | Wes Kao (Maven, altMBA, Section4)
Executive Summary
A Lenny's Podcast conversation with Wes Kao, co-founder of Maven and former co-founder of the altMBA with Seth Godin, on persuasive communication, managing up, running better talks and meetings, and saying no. Sponsors named at the start: Modern Treasury and Veriff. PARTIAL COVERAGE: the available caption text is cut off partway through the section on saying no, so the end of that section and anything after it is not covered. Company details are the speakers' own claims.
Key Takeaways
Career path
Kao says she started at Gap headquarters, worked at a beauty company and an ad-tech company, then worked with Seth Godin to co-found the altMBA before starting Maven.
Managing up
She says many people assume their boss should manage them and feel resentful about managing up, but that embracing it can help your career.
The content hierarchy of BS
She says that as you move from blog posts up to books and cohort-based courses there is less room for BS, because live audiences can challenge you.
State change in talks
She says most meetings and presentations are one person talking, so you should punctuate monologues with state changes that shake your audience awake.
Conclusion first
She describes a pyramid-style writing approach where you start with the conclusion, then the reasons, and keep decisions separate from background so readers know what is being asked.
Saying no
She says saying no does not come naturally for her either, as a recovering people pleaser, and that she tailors it to the relationship.
Trade-offs
She says she learned from a colleague to say no by naming trade-offs, such as which other work would slip if he took on a new design request.
The Conversation Breakdown
Career path
⏱ Untimed topicKao says she started at Gap headquarters, worked at a beauty company and an ad-tech company, then worked with Seth Godin to co-found the altMBA before starting Maven.
Managing up
⏱ Untimed topicShe says many people assume their boss should manage them and feel resentful about managing up, but that embracing it can help your career.
The content hierarchy of BS
⏱ Untimed topicShe says that as you move from blog posts up to books and cohort-based courses there is less room for BS, because live audiences can challenge you.
State change in talks
⏱ Untimed topicShe says most meetings and presentations are one person talking, so you should punctuate monologues with state changes that shake your audience awake.
Conclusion first
⏱ Untimed topicShe describes a pyramid-style writing approach where you start with the conclusion, then the reasons, and keep decisions separate from background so readers know what is being asked.
Saying no
⏱ Untimed topicShe says saying no does not come naturally for her either, as a recovering people pleaser, and that she tailors it to the relationship.
Trade-offs
⏱ Untimed topicShe says she learned from a colleague to say no by naming trade-offs, such as which other work would slip if he took on a new design request.
Core Frameworks & Ideas
Content hierarchy of BS - Kao's view
The more interactive the format, the less room there is for empty claims.
State change - Kao's method
Break up monologues with moments that wake the audience.
Conclusion first - Kao's writing method
Lead with the ask, then the reasons, and keep background separate.
Actionable Next Steps
- ✓Add one state change, such as a question or short exercise, to your next talk or meeting.
- ✓Rewrite a recent update so the decision or ask comes first.
- ✓Next time you say no, name the trade-off the person would be choosing.
- ✓Pick one thing your manager needs from you and offer it before they ask.
Notable Quotes
“As you move up that hierarchy there's less and less room for BS”
“State changes are anything that shakes your audience awake”
“saying no does not come naturally for me either”
The One Thing to Remember
Kao says communication is a means to an end, and that managing up, state changes and saying no with trade-offs all serve getting the outcome you want.